Monday, August 11, 2008

"Conversion to Islam" Forum ends after police advice

Kuala Lumpur: The Bar Council held its controversial "Conversion to Islam" forum Saturday despite opposition from various parties but ended it earlier than scheduled.
Midway through the forum, Bar Council President Datuk S. Ambiga took to the stage and told those present that the police had advised them to wrap up the forum by 10am.
Quoted from Daily Express...related news...


  1. 'Conversion to Islam' forum ends early after police advice
    Kuala Lumpur: The Bar Council held its controversial "Conversion to Islam" forum Saturday despite opposition from various parties but ended it earlier than scheduled.

    Midway through the forum, Bar Council President Datuk S. Ambiga took to the stage and told those present that the police had advised them to wrap up the forum by 10am.

    The forum at the Bar Council office in Lebuh Pasar Besar started at 9am and was supposed to end at 1.30pm.

    At 10am, Ambiga formally announced that the forum was closed.

    "We respect everybody's views. We have no quarrel with anyone and I call the forum closed," she said.

    Meanwhile, the 100-odd people, including those from Islamic non-governmental organisations (NGOs) who had gathered outside the venue to voice their protest, had swollen to 1,000 by 9.30am.

    Some 100 policemen were deployed to handle security in the area.

    At about 9.50am, several representative of NGOs and political parties entered the auditorium on the first floor of the Bar Council building and stood facing the speakers - comprising lawyers Ravi Nekko, K. Shanmugam and Mohamed Haniff Khatri Abdulla - who were in the midst of discussion.

    Minutes later arguments ensued between them, with the group demanding that the forum be stopped.

    Former Suhakam commissioner Mehrun Siraj who was at the forum, stood up and called on the group to calm down and show respect for the event.

    At this juncture, Ambiga went on stage and assured everyone that she would close the forum if everyone calm down and remain seated. Minutes later, she announced the closure of the forum.

    Home Minister Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar told reporters in Kota Tinggi, Johor that the forum was ended early to avoid tension and prevent the situation from getting out of control.

    "We didn't want the anger to lead to any untoward incident. So far, I've not received any report on threat to security or disturbance to public order," he said.

    He added that police advised the organiser to end the forum early after the crowd demonstrating outside the Bar Council office continued to swell.

    Commenting on the matter, Minister in the Prime Minister's Department Datuk Seri Dr Ahmad Zahid Hamidi said the government did not want to see polemics over the issue.

    "The government is open about this but don't abuse the openness," he said, stressing that it was not proper for such forum to be held openly.

    The crowd began gathering outside the Bar Council building since 8am.

    At 9.30am, Peninsula Malay Students Federation (GPMS) Deputy President Jais Abdul Karim was seen discussing with Dang Wangi OCPD Zulkarnain Abdul Rahman that they would proceed with the gathering peacefully.

    Several representative of NGOs and political parties later followed Zulkarnain inside the forum's venue.

    Zulkarnain told reporters later that after a brief discussion, two of the event's organising committee members agreed to end the forum immediately.

    "Police have the power to advise or to stop the forum if we feel that the threat to security is rising. We don't want the situation to get out of hand; so we advise the organiser to stop the forum immediately," he said.

    He said the situation returned to normal thereafter, with the crowd dispersing by 11am and the Jalan Lebuh Pasar Besar was re-opened to traffic. No arrest was made.

    Among those seen at the gathering were PAS Youth chief Salahuddin Ayub and two Parti Keadilan Rakyat supreme council members, Badrul Amin Baharum and Latheefa Koya.

    On the discovery of two bottles, believed to be molotov cocktails, at the Bar Council entrance at 7.30am, Zulkarnain said they had been sent to the Chemistry Department for analysis.

    Met by reporters later, Ambiga said, the incident as unfortunate and that it was unnecessary to take an aggressive stand to stop the forum.

    "As far as the Bar is concerned, we believe in the freedom of speech and those who gathered outside the building are entitled to do so as long as it is done peacefully," she said.

    Ambiga said the forum was to deal with legal issues and not to question any religion.

    "We're looking at the conclusion of conversion cases dealt by the court where there was a conflict between the jurisdiction of the Civil Court and Syariah Court which affected families involved in conversion cases.

    "At the end of the day, the dialogue is very important and the forum was to assist the public facing conversion problems," she said.

    Thanking the police for handling the situation professionally, Ambiga said, the bar council would not lodge police reports against the protestors as they too were exercising their right.

    Meanwhile, Mehrun told reporters that the topic should be discussed in a nice way and the public should be allowed to express their views.

    She also said that the NGO representatives' action to interrupt and stop the discussion was uncalled for.

    "What I feel need to be done is to explain to the people what Islam is all about. I think we can come to discuss instead of shouting. That is not the way. I am unhappy with it because it gives Islam a bad name," she said.

    Mehrun urged the government to amend Section 3 of the Law Reforms (Marriage and Divorce) Act 1976 to give opportunities to a converted spouse to annul his or her civil marriage at the Civil Court in cases where the other spouse opted not to convert.

    Currently, she said, there were cases being brought up to the Civil Court between the converted spouse and his or her non-Muslim partner disputing which jurisdiction - the Syariah Court or the Civil Court - should adjudicate the dissolution of civil marriage and custody of children from their civil marriage.

    "To me, the problem arises due to the lack of understanding among the non-Muslims and it is our duty to explain to them, but not by shouting or bullying," she said.

    She added that more such discussions should be held to give opportunities to Muslims to explain matters related to Islam to the non-Muslims.- Bernama



  3. After 45 years of independent my beloved country MALAY-SIA and UMNO successfully produce such RACIST PRODUCT.

    This bunch of monkey re-action to show that they don't have the intellectual and wisdom to debate their religion and also no confident in their religion so-called Islam.

    When the RACIST UMNO government rejected to build the MAZU in kudat, I didn't see any buddhist run amok in Sabah and hence we are protected by 20 points NO ISLAMATION in Sabah. Who the hell is MUIS to reject to build MAZU in Sabah?

    When the RACIST UMNO government BANNED the ALLAH word for the Christian but I didn't see any Christian run amok in Malaysia either?

    When it just a debate about religion, the RACIST Malay start shouting and cursing on the non muslim. WHERE IS THE WATER CANON PDRM?

    Inilah ajaran dari agama sesat! Balik2 cakap islam ajar peace, tolerant and blar .... Porah!

  4. In this Country Malaysia , it is the Muslim Taiko , only Muslim allow to go demonstration - hundreds , thousands .
    Where is Police tear gas , & water gun ??

    Bar council just having the INDOOR Forum - INDOOR FORUM under peace and harmony discussion inside the building , Closed Door meeting .

    And outside ------

    There are huge amount of demonstractors , shouting slogan , carring cards , cursing bad words , etc......

    Police force just standing , doing nothing .......are thses people on the streets apply for permit to do so ? If not why police take action against them ?

    Is religion ISLAM so sacred that non- muslim can't Talk about it ?
    What kind of religion is it ?

    If Muslim is so proud about the ISLAM , they should share the religion to all who wants to know more .

    If Non - Muslim do not understand ISLAM , it is the Muslim believers' duty to explain to the non - Muslim .

    Muslim do not scare by putting demonstraction on the streets which causes the people high tension unnessarry .

    ISLAM teaching should be a peace , loving , harmony to all mankind , isn't it ?

  5. If heaven is full of these EXTREMISTS, I would rather go to hell

    HELL is a state of mind only;most of the BN politicians are now in living HELL!We dont have to go there;we are aaaaalready in HELL considering the latest scenario;petrol prices ,bread & rice going up every other day!this is more HELL tha heaven!27 million set of laws of the jungle;one for the pigs,one for the dogs;one for cats;one for chameleons;Malaysians sure very metropolitan when it comes to laws;one set for Najib,one for Badawi & one for Anwar;how pathetic;the whole world is watching;Allah is watching too;Alhamdulilah!

  6. "You Cninese, Indians, Sabahan and Sarawakians...go away!!"

    Its not only Chinese and Indians that were there. What about the Kadazan, Iban, Melanau, Bisayahs, Murut, Dusun, Runggus, Orang Sungai, Orang Asli, Bdayuhs, Penans, Kadayan, Bajau, Lun Bawang.... There are over 30 ethnic groups in Malaysia. If Malays persist in pursuing its Ketuanan Melayu Agenda, there is no room for others, and indirectly they have been saying "Go to hell..." to others all these while.

    Chinese and Indians can easily be identified, but what about the Sarawakians and Sabahans? They speak Malay, looks like Malay... is that the reason why they are not bumiputera but Pribumi now?

    I challenge Syed Hamid Albar, if you are as loud mouth to condemn others, please be another loud mouth and charge these individuals as Seditious. You are quick to condemn Hindraf, now let that law be applied to these shouting bigots.

  7. athis shows how they are brought up! They cite and cite and cite until they are DEAD. To them RUKUN NEGARA are nothing.

    Look at how Datin Seri Jeaane Abdullah looks at Religion because she was Christian (Catholic) for 23 years before she converted due to marriage (1st failed) and the second appears ok and ONLY started to learn about it with Pak Lah!

    These people are rude and no manners by trooping in and disrupt a peaceful FORUM. The governemnt had set up a PANEL ON CONVERSION but what has the gov't done (Gerakan Acting President)

    Rember the incident @ Our Lady of Lourdes Church in Silibin, Ipoh?

    Rumour mongers including Mufti of Perak incited people vis SMS by one Raja Sherina about Datuk Azhar Mansor.

    Reverend Robin Arumugam said, "SIMPLY INCONCEIVABLE". The congregation witness the first Holy Communion for 98 Indian children of the local parish.

    Oh what are they?

  8. Hello Malaysian , can we sit dowm to discuss things that affect our lives ?

    If Bar Council choose to hold Forum to discuss and to find out solutions best for Malaysian , it is anovel thing to do , should be encourage .

    Whereas there are hundreds people choose to demonstrct in the streets , they thought just by talk aloud , shout aloud , slander here , scolding there , they can become Hero and they can really solve the problems which infact they create MORE suspicious and Unanswer problems .

    All religion are teaching people in doing good thing .
    I respect Islam , Buddiasm , Christian , Thaipusam , etc.

    It is a free thinking world .
    Come on , we are now in the 21st centuary .

    We do not live in the caves , or up on the trees .

    Wake up Malaysian , if my 8 yrs daughter grow up one day , if she choose Islam , if Islam can convince her that ALLAH is good , very good for her , as parents , I do not object her , but I can advice her to think carefully , to think twice , three , four ,five times ......................
    cos it is her future anyway , not mine .

    Vice versa if later after so many yrs , she choose to change to another religion , as parents , I do not object her , but I can advice her to think carefully , to think twice , three , four , five times ..........................
    cos she is atill my little daughter , she has grown up , it is her future , not mine .

    So , be it Muslim , Budda , thaipusam , Christian , just open your hearts . Let YOUR GOD choose them , it is not we choose GOD .

    To night I will pray to my God for my 8 yrs daughter

  9. Humans can progress and learn only if they open up their eyes, ears and listen.

    Shutting oneself and shutting up others are selfish, cruel, stubborn and worst become morons.

  10. About these EXTREMIST who disrupted an Indoor Forum by the Bar Council.

    Next time when such a forum which affects ALL LOVING Malaysian irrespective of religion, call us from Sarawak. We have a solution - poisonous blow-pipe sharp-shooters.

    The Police did not act impartially. Its like George Orwell Animal Farm story. No permit but allowed. Police stood there and no water canon/tear gas.

    Let the extremists taste the ipoh end of the dart. That is the only way to rid these people (Zulkifli Noordin, GPMS "hero", UMNO "hero", Syed Hamid, Zahid Hamidi, Najib to name some) from the Land we love

    Let us see from now on! Move on Bar Council. Julius Ceasar said, "Cawards Die Manay Times".

  11. Ultimately, there is nothing supernatural. There is no scientific evidence of the existence of anything supernatural. Supernatural being are by definition incapable of being proven or disproven. It is also impossible to reconcile the differences among all the religions since all of them are based on fallcies and the irrational fantasies of ancient and ignorant peoples. Therefore, religions must be eradicated before people can live in harmony and peace.

    As to the question whether civil laws or Syariah law should prevail, it is obvious that the civil law should prevail. There should be a total separation of state and religion. Religions are no more than social clubs or personal beliefs that cannot enter the public places.

    Confucius was a man of sturdy common sense who said:

    "敬鬼神而遠之" (respect the spirits and keep far away from them.) Confucian Analect Ch 6 Verse 20

    "未能事人焉能事鬼" (if man cannot serve the people how can he serve the spirits?) Confucian Analect Ch 11, Verse 11.

    Confucius was correct to tell the people to avoid the spirits as nobody know what they are. It is far more relevant for the people to concentrate on serving the people as that is the only way to maintain an orderly society.

    In the final analysis, the eradication of the fallacious religions and the inculcation of high morals and ethics will lay the foundation for a peaceful and harmonious society based on the scientific understanding of the human nature and the humanist education to nurture people who are knowledgeable and decent and friendly which is the only way to institute and maintain a harmonious and prosperous society.

  12. Ahmad Kamal: I want to single out the behaviour of lawyer and legislator Zulkifli Noordin for his boorish behaviour outside the Bar Council. By insisting on rampaging the Bar Council, he is acting like someone without iman (faith, belief).

    This is scandalous behaviour, so unbecoming of a lawyer, I must say.

    I am certainly very saddened that this demonstration has frightened the minorities of Malaysia who are attending the forum to discover ways of resolving problems pretty much created by humans speaking in the name of Islam.

    Muslims who believe in the protection of minority rights would distance themselves from such a mob. However, by not speaking out, we are jeopardising the future that we think might be brought about by this New Dawn that Malaysians hope to see come this September 2008.

    I make a plea to Malaysians and Muslims in Malaysia to keep clear heads on this.

    Muslims have to work with believers of all faiths and beliefs to clear a path (syariah) of tolerance and respect as demanded by the message of humanity in the Quran.

  13. Mosques must in all Sabah residential areas: Hajiji
    Tuaran: Local Government and Housing Minister Datuk Hajiji Hj. Mohd Noor said all residential projects constructed in Sabah must provide a mosque for Muslims staying in the area. He said it is a compulsory requirement for all housing developers to comply before the Government approves the development plan.

    "All housing developers must prepare the design of the mosque and include it in the development plan before submitting it to the government to be considered for approval.

    "Failing to do so could cause their application to carry out the project to be rejected," he said Daily Express here on Monday.

    Hajiji said the developers must also make sure that the mosque must be disabled-friendly to facilitate the special people to ensure they enjoy the benefits as others staying in the housing area.

    If the worship facility (mosque) is not provided, Hajiji said it would difficult for Muslim residents to pray like during Friday prayer, Terawih prayer and Eid Day prayer.

    Based on a study, most housing projects that have been completed and on progress in Sabah do not provide the mosque facility for the Muslim residents.

    So all new housing projects should also have a church, a temple for Buddhist and Hindu (if the area has a Hindu Indian)

    To Hajiji, you are trying to create more troubles for we Sabah people here!?x#@

  14. How about loudspeakers??? should not be put outside which cause noise pollution and disturb others

  15. Dear Hajiji,

    There is NO ISLAMANATION in Sabah and clearly stated in our 20 points. Please STOP playing fire with religion in Sabah. This is not malaya. FUCK YOU!

  16. Tuaran: Local Government and Housing Minister Datuk Hajiji Hj. Mohd Noor said all residential projects constructed in Sabah must provide a mosque for Muslims staying in the area. He said it is a compulsory requirement for all housing developers to comply before the Government approves the development plan.

    How does this shit head elected?

    Imagine a housing area mostly populated by non-muslims and there was 1 family of muslims.

    A mosque built for them (one family). The father being the imam, his eldest son guru..wife and other kids goes to this mosque.

    It is 'sendirian berhad' and may be they can also move in..and rent their own house..saves a lot.


  17. "He said it is a compulsory requirement for all housing developers to comply before the Government approves the development plan. "
    Fuck you Hajiji, Our country also has law saying that NO ILLEGAL MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS loaming around Sabah but what is happening now? You RACIST UMNO even suggest to give the ILLEGAL MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS PR.

    Why those non muslim YB keep quiet for this RACIST policy? This is Sabah and not fucking malaya full of ninja turtle.

  18. What is Hajiji trying to do????? Want to provoke Sabahans? Such order to have mosque for every housing estate is simply ridiculous, extremist, selfish, inconsiderate to other races and religions.

    Do you want a mosque in front your house and the loudspeakers facing your front door? Hell, you gone crackers when they shout!

  19. 那是典型的双重标准,选择性办案。君不见安华1998年鸡奸案和目前类似案件?冰山一角。

  20. I think nothing have changed the mindset since '70!
    Even for education look at how they went "amok" on MB of Selangor for UITM. Taken away 30% while now providing 10% if UITM standard is to aim globalise.
    Thus, never change and we can imagine how scare,selfish and foolish they are. Self praise and extreme in any aspect will not bring goodness too.
    All sins will eventually fall back to them, trust it!
    Good bless for such an administrator whoever they are to educate their children for the future. Religion and education could not be only yours, always remember this!

  21. Ambiga stands firm amidst ISA calls

    I salute and applaud the legal courage, firmness and initiative of our Bar Council president, Ambiga Sreenevasan and her team of leaders in organising the open forum.

    It is shocking to right-thinking Malaysians that there are now calls by some extremist groups and individuals for her and other organisers of the forum to be detained under the repressive ISA.

    Is this the government's way to stifle dissent and a genuine desire by a concerned party to seek an amicable solution to this ‘conflict of laws' situation?

    Actually, the government leaders should be thankful to Ambiga and the Bar Council for organising this controversial forum as the govertnment has abdicated its responsibility to non- Muslim Malaysians and has shown itself either unwilling or incapable of finding a solution to break this legal impasse despite the lapse of time.

    And if Ambiga and her team are now in serious trouble and may be charged under the ISA, what about the ambiguous role played by the police officers present that morning, not to mention the highly seditious statements made by some politicians and the rowdy mob who threatened to storm into the building?

    If they did not have a police permit, were they not guilty of holding an illegal assembly then? Shouldn't these people be charged for sedition and under other relevant security or criminal laws, for being a nuisance to public peace and order as the forum was being held in a privately-owned building?

    Quoted from: Disgusted Malaysian

  22. Why is it so difficult for adults to sit together and speak about sensitive issues in a propper manner, able to ask questions and get answers like it is done in other countries? If we do not understand others religon, culture and costums, we are not able to treet them fair and respectfull, because we do not know anything about them. It is considered rude to call a muslim during prayertime. I agree! But does a moslem know when it is rude to call a christian, hindu, bhuddist or others? I do not think so, because they are so occupied with htere own costums and do not care for other things so know! I feel sad about that because this will bring Malaysia further down and backwards. Sorry for the next generations to come because they have to deal with it since we have not been able be become united Malaysian! What a pitty!

  23. Mosques must in all Sabah residential areas: Hajiji
    Tuaran: Local Government and Housing Minister Datuk Hajiji Hj. Mohd Noor said all residential projects constructed in Sabah must provide a mosque for Muslims staying in the area. He said it is a compulsory requirement for all housing developers to comply before the Government approves the development plan.

    For Hajiji, the objective here is simply straight forward....more stringent rules, more kopi-o money to get it approved.

  24. Why nobody cares to comment on Hajiji's statement? Man, we are living in modern times, a car can bring you to any mosque you want in town. why waste our open space for such purpose which serves no other purposes to non-muslims?

  25. What we would like to hear from our leaderships is aren't we, being non-Malay, non-Muslims are Malaysian??? Why is there a need to have this kind of discrimination. There are plenty of discriminations being practised in the name of "closing the income gap" of various races. We are no longer kid to be conned. Why do the Malays have the privilege???

    Please stop telling us that this land of Malaysia belongs to the Malay. It shows that they never study history before, or chose to ignore the fact that Parameswara came from elsewhere, just less than 100 years earlier than the Chinese. That doesn't warranty them to have the upperhand.

    Furthermore, without the supports from the Chinese and Indians (not to forget other races), Malaysia would have never gained Independence. By then, there would not be any special privilege for any specific race, but rather freedom, equality etc.

  26. Open letter to Zulkifli Nordin: Resign!

    Dear Zuklifli Nordin,

    Thank you for finally coming out of hiding and delivering a much needed press conference. During the press conference you made the claim that one can "talk about Islam but you can't talk for Islam". In a similar vein I would like to make it clear that you and Pembela can talk about Muslims but you can't talk for Muslims. You certainly don't speak for this Muslim and I daresay there are many other Malaysian Muslims that you do not speak for. You and the other leaders of that demonstration have only brought shame upon Muslims and moreover brought Islam into disrepute because by your actions and words on the morning of 9th August 2008 you lend credence to the notion that Muslims are irrational liars who are prone to threats of violence and that our faith is too weak to be discussed in the open.

    Umran Kadir

  27. Peace lovers irrelevant cos of silence

    This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read. His references to past history are accurate and clear. Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read.

    A German's View on Islam

    A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates.

    When asked how many German people were true Nazis, The answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.

    'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, And many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

    We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace. And that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace.

    Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant.

    It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectra of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

    The fact is, that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history.

    It is the fanatics who march.

    It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide.

    It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave.

    It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor-kill.

    It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque.

    It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of Rape victims and homosexuals.

    It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.
    The hard quantifiable fact is, that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous.

    Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace. Yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

    China's huge population was peaceful as well. But Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.

    The average Japanese individual prior to World War II, was not a war-mongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered it's way across South-East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians. Most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.

    And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery.Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace-loving'?

    History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt. Yet for all our posers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:

    Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up. Because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them. And the end of their world will have begun.

    Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have die because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

    As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts. The fanatics who threaten our way of life.

    Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on!

    Let us hope that thousands, world-wide, will read this and think about it, and send it on - before it's too late.

    Emanuel Tanay, M.D.

  28. Zulkifli is Anwar's party pooper

    From the face down, I see a fiery, fanatical, extremist, dangerous elected MP not befitting, and explosive, tantrumic psycho on the loose!

    Zulkifli should resign as an MP, he definitely does not fit in. There are a lot of people like him in Al Queda and other terrorist groups...